Certificate of Continuous Discharge query

[Doc Vernon]

Paul
I ma not sure on that ,but would say Yes! It is the duty (was) to record all details of a Voyage so the Passenger and Crew would more than likely be done at each port ,however there may have been a system different at that time?
As far as i am aware Paul the individual Port Authority would get these details.
Only other way of course is to Board a Ship as a Stowaway ,which was something that happened a lot. It was quite easy in the old days to get aboard a Ship (not like Today) if you were a bit brazen,you could if timed correctly just walk up the Crew Gangplank,or even the Passenger one ,i know this as i have seen it done many times. Easy to get lost on Board after that.
But i guess with him that was not the case.
What period have you got Paul, from Port Said ,and have you any idea on the Ship!
This is something that may be able to be established (Ship that is) if we have a date that is near as dammit!
If it was an Oriental Line ,i wonder which one ?
Cheers

[Nigel Gladwin]

Paul,
I'm not sure what the situation regarding British Seaman's Discharge Books in Australia was but I know that in NZ these documents were not used. In my own case entries in my book ceased on arrival NZ and were replaced by a single sheet Certificate of Discharge for each time I 'signed off ' a ship on NZ Articles of Agreement with a copy kept by the various Shipping Offices.
I believe the place of engagement for the 'Sir W. J. Davis' (?) was Constantinople (re-named Istanbul in 1923) - The ship's Articles appear to have been for a voyage to the Black Sea and return and therefore The Articles would have expired on arrival Cardiff ( and presumably new Articles opened for subsequent voyage. The notation for one vessel of "Master omitted to sign" would possibly have been made by a Shipping Master (Govt. Official) after the seaman had left the vessel unexpectedly due to desertion, sickness etc. We used to use the term 'written-off' instead of 'signed-off' in an entry in the Official Log Book.
Regards

[Ivan Cloherty]

Hi Doc


There is one question I'd like some guidance on: the ship that my great-uncle boarded (I believe in Port Said) to come to Australia - all I know is the rough time frame it voyaged here. Does a freighter have to lodge crew lists in every port it visits, and who in port usually receives that list

(1) What today's procedures are I don't know, but on cargo ships in 50's and 60's and perhaps even later. A crew list didn't have to be lodged with every port visited, different countries had different requirements, but upon entering port or port limits (anchorage) Customs, Immigration would board the vessel to inspect all documents including crew lists, as long as the crew list matched the Discharge Books in the custody of the Master and all other documents were in order, then the vessel was granted Free Pratigue, only after the yellow flag was taken down then the Agent, stevedores, chandlers etc could board and crew could go ashore if shore leave granted.

(2) In the USA there were different rules and each seaman was questioned by US Immigration and was granted an 'Aliens Landing Card' still got mine from 1954 may come in useful if the Daleks invade. Some East Coast South American countries had similar procedures but your shore pass was called a Shore Pass, never experienced any interviews on the West Coast of South America.

(3)I should imagine similar arrangements in (1) were common in the 1900's, apart from the Alien Landing Card, which was introduced by McArthurism and communist paranoia

[John Arton]

Ivan/Paul
There are at least two documents/forms that the master would present to customs and immigration officials boarding at each port during the voyage.
A crew list and a crew effects declaration (listing amongst other items,, the number of cigarettes and spirits each crew member had in their possession along with their personal effects (radio, dutiable goods such as watches etc). These documents were required by customs to show that crew members were not smuggling certain items into the country and by immigration in order that they could issue any shore pass that any particular country may require in order that crew members could go ashore, (think Japan, Argentina etc.)
If the vessel was visiting multiple ports in the same country, then these forms would only be presented at the first port, though further ports in the same country could have their own regulations and require the same forms (or copies of the original) to be submitted. The ships agent in each port would require at least a crew list.
What those customs and immigration officials and ships agent did with those documents after the vessel departed port I have no idea, possibly they used them for scrap paper or even bum paper.
These days of course it's all done by computers and email attachment.
Rgds
J.A.

[happy daze john in oz]

On most cruise ships now there is provision made for all manner of different regulations in many ports.

Russian ports, Cambodia and Vietnam come to mind.
In these all passengers going ashore must first present their passport to local authorities who come on board, you are then given a special permit which must be handed in at the gate before leaving the port.
Then some ports such as Komodo Island you cannot go ashore unless you have a shore tour booked

[Paul Manos]

Hi Doc

It struck me from the outset that those voyages back then took a long time for a stowaway to hide without making himself known to access food/water/latrines, etc. So, I assumed a stowaway would wait a safe interval of time after departure and declare himself to the crew if only for his own nourishment, etc, albeit at the risk of a master putting him ashore at the first port, convenient to the stowaway or not. But I'm just speculating; I'd really like to know what people's real world experiences are of discovering a stowaway on board.

Regarding your question about the period my great-uncle would have most likely sailed to Australia, I'm thinking December 1909 or January 1910 from Port Said, his last entry in the Certificate booklet for the gap of 6 years. It seemed to me to make sense to pick up a ship already en route to Australia rather than journey back to Cardiff and find one there, but I have no idea what the conditions on the ground were in those days. I don't think he would have lingered in Port Said. i get the impression he left home at 18 without a strong desire to return.

As to which ship, I've compiled a list of the Orient Line ships (5 of them) that sailed to Australia from late 1909 through the first 6 months of 1910. The list I've compiled comes from reports in the Commercial and Shipping newspapers in Australia at the time or in the shipping columns of the daily papers; but I've discovered that most of the dates given are approximate because of the communication delays between Australia and ports overseas. Some reports state a ship is expected to leave on a certain date, others report a departure date some time after the event; some state a ship has been sited passing a viewing point en route; others state the expected arrival date. If any of the dates are accurate, it's hard to know which. At present I don't know how to access an online archive with either the actual dates the Orient Line ships departed London (or whichever dock their departure was recorded from) or the actual dates of passing through Port Said. Knowing this would help, I believe.

The short list is Orvieto, Otway, Orontes, Orsova, Oprah.

Cheers

[Doc Vernon]

Hi Paul
All very possible as you write,and one has to look at all Avenues to try at least to solve this one!
I think very similar thoughts to yours and who knows there may be a clue somewhere to this Puzzle.
I will when i can try and delve futher into the Ships you gave and dates etc,at least its a start.
Another thing that puzzles me (Mind you its not uncommon) is that i cannot find a trace of him in the National Archives or in fact online at places like FMP ,and others??

Do you have any other pieces of his Discharge Book at all? His Number may be of help??

As for Stowaways well Paul,that wasnt too uncommon ,but as you say he may well have later in the Voyage told the Crew!

So for now all we can do is carry on and see if anything else may come to light!
Cheers

[Ivan Cloherty]

Hi Doc




The short list is Orvieto, Otway, Orontes, Orsova, Oprah.

Cheers

Paul, don't want to make your task more difficult, but there were also scores of cargo vessels transiting the Suez during those periods, which would be proceeding east to Hong Kong/Singapore etc where-in he may have ended up and then have had to stow away again to Oz. Only cursory inspections were made when departing ports as leaving port was always a busy period for deck crew/officers and it was these people who undertook shipboard searches. Plenty of places to hide aboard an old cargo ship with its many storage compartments, forepeak, afterpeak, paint locker, tonnage hatch, lifeboats etc etc

[Ralph Harper]

Ralph501994
In answer to your question seamen signed articles on any ship for 2 years, and you only finished on arrival in a Uk port,in other words you could be away for 6 weeks or the full 2years
Ralph

[Paul Manos]

Hello John
I saw such a document (Ship's List of Crew) at the National Archives at Villawood in Sydney when I visited there last year. I don't know if this crew list document is standardised internationally but what the Archives staff pulled out for me were very large bound green volumes, bound at the short end, printed & written up down the page. To read the crew list, the volume had to be spread open across the desk and I had to lean over half the width of the desk to read from the top down. Very awkward on the back & on your eye sight. Had to give it up on that occasion as a lost cause - too many crew lists, not enough time.