Purser or Supercargo

[j.sabourn]

On this website I have found one can get a lot of facts one pushed to the back of the mind years ago, and only now can clarify by others personal experiences. Going back in time I was on a Palm Line charter, doing the usual Palm Line run, starting off if I remember correctly in Dakar. This was a real General cargo, and believe we carried everything imagineable. We carried a what they called a Palm Line Purser. To me at that time a Purser was someone on a passenger liner to cater/look after the passengers enquiries etc. The passenger line people could maybe clarify this. Although the mate still did all the cargo plans etc. this purser was not involved in anything at sea. He refused to assist the master in any of the ships accounts etc. saying he was employed by Palm Line only. On the West coast and all the ports including the Surf ports he seemed to speak a bit of the local gibberish so was a bit of a use there. He seemed to think he could run the discharge from his cabin and was always persistant in getting myself and the 3rd. mate down the holds, where I believe he should have been. I asked him how he got the job and title of purser, he told me that after doing his National Service he went as a Writer, perhaps someone could clarify this role on a passenger ship. As he was on a pound a month more than I was as 2nd. Mate, at the time I wasnt very impressed. Maybe some of the Palm Line members could clarify this role of Purser in Palm Line, I would have called his position a Supercargo. The ship would not have stopped without him I am sure. As there is a wealth of Knowledge out there, maybe someone could clarify these points for me. Regards John Sabourn

[happy daze john in oz]

Not sure about Palm line or others but on UCl I knew a couple of pursers who would have nothing to do with the second steward. As far as they were concerned they were there to provuide service to the bloods. Somehow they were a department on their own, neither catering, deck or anything else.

[Ivan Cloherty]

. Maybe some of the Palm Line members could clarify this role of Purser in Palm Line, I would have called his position a Supercargo. The ship would not have stopped without him I am sure. As there is a wealth of Knowledge out there, maybe someone could clarify these points for me. Regards John Sabourn

Cannot comment on Palm Line procedures/pursers. But when we put our ships on Time Charter to other companies they always put their own supercargoes on board, these were usually mates and/or second mates from their own company. On one occasion we had a Ch.Officer and a bosun from their company.Whilst our company was still responsible for loading/stability/cargo plans as per usual, the supercargoes gave every assistance they could and usely did the cargo plans at loading port, going down the hold along with ourselves to ensure that cargo properly stowed and lashed etc and going down the holds at discharging ports to ensure nothing over carried to next port. As afterall it was their company's reputation on the line. My experience of these men when I sailed with them in my seagoing days and superintending days was that they were only too happy to muck in when on long sea passages with painting, taking sights etc to keep their hand in. The best ones I sailed with were Frenchmen from NCHP, very professional, hard grafters and great sense of humour and became friends and we kept in contact long after we had parted our professional dealings.

[robpage]

Clan Line ? UCL on the cargo ships carried a Purser catering officer , he did all the crew paperwork , sign on - sign off , wages - subs , dished out the day to day first aid , and ws part of the ships book keeping when it came to customs agents , head office affairs , he also was in charge of the catering , which was officers with two cooks , one Goanese to get around pork products , he was Christian , one a second cook baker , one cook for deck , in his own galley and one for engineroom with his own galley . The writer is still a Royal Naval department that covers teh admin side of what teh purser does . On passenger ships teh whole of teh Pursers department seemed to be there to keep teh bloods happy , and te Purser / Catering officer 2 1/2 stripe ion his sleeve was in charge of catering , effectivly the chief Cook , Chef de cusine . When we carried Charter men they signed on as Supernumery .

[John Arton]

Going through some of my fathers stuff from the 50's, he was Capatin in Blue Star, it would appear that in those days the purser did a lot of the cargo related paperwork, filling in or making out B/L's etc and so was most likely quite a valuable member of the crew, especially so loading and discharging.
Come forward to my era and the purser was usually a pizz head who slept half the day and all the night but who occasionally made up a crew list, dished out subs etc. In C.P. they combined the Purser and the Chief Stewards job into one and boy were some of them not puffed out blighters claiming they had two qualifications. Most of us could think of two but they are unprintable. Eventually C.P. got rid of them and the Captain took over the job. Nobody noticed the difference except the quality of food increased, the price of beer and fags dropped and the storerooms always were full with the contents of them all being well inside the "use by" date.
On the Empress boats even the most junior purser got an entertainments allowance, yet only the captain, staff captain and chief officer got one.
The Pursers were supposed to be the interface between the ship and the passengers and as such they were meant to handle all the passengers complaints etc. and were supposed to be experts in people handling skills, similar to that of a hotel manager.
Hmmmmmmm... the ones I knew had about as much interpersonal skills as I have space pilots skill, one even accusing a very irate passenger whose accomodation had been entered by a another passenger twice, of making the whole thing up. This after he had chased the other passenger around there deck with a knife threating to kill him if he caught him. The passenger being chased had on the second time he had entered the wrong cabin had caught the wife coming bollocko out of the shower and had made some rather inappropriate moves on her.
Fun I had trying to calm a knife weilding passenger down (half a bottle of scotch) and to say I was slightly pizzed off when eventually a purser turned up he, as said, started to accuse the victim of making up the story....wrong think to do with a half pizzed, knife weilding passenger who was ex. marine corps.
Supercargoes were, as said, usually ex. Ch. Offs or even Captains put on board by and employed by, the vessels charterers. Most of them were O.K. especially so as most of them had quite generous expense accounts so were always good for a pizz-up ashore on them.
rgds
Capt. John Arton (ret'd)

[Jim Brady]

My input to this would be I seen both sides of the coin.This is from a passenger ship point of view.As I seen it the Chief Steward had most probably started his career at sea as a Bell Boy in the company and went through the ranks and reached the position that he was in.There would've been nothing that he did not know about the Catering Department.I worked in the Pursers office as a Bell Boy and I would consider that these people were accountants without the knowledge of the catering dept that the Chief Steward had.I believe that when the new rank of Purser Chief Steward came about the Purser was senior to the Chief Steward which I could never understand as I do not think that he would've had the knowledge of the catering game to hold that position.Cargo boats,when I first went away I think the Second Mate did the wages.When it was switched over to the Chief Steward he became Purser Chief Steward.
Regards.
Jim.B.

[John Callon]

Some facts regarding this post need clarifying. John Arton, this is not the first time that you have posted making derogatory remarks about the Catering Department. Lets be quite clear about this, the Catering Department is just as important as the Deck and Engine Departments, in every way.

Your remarks regarding the Purser spending half of the day pissed, and the other half asleep, is, quite frankly, quite insulting to somebody who spent 17 years as a Purser.

For the record, I have met quite a few Second Mates who were "puffed up blighters"who thought they knew it all, when, in truth, I had spent longer over a wave, than they had been at sea! I have also sailed with some Captains, who were nothing else but piss-artists, and I stress SOME, not ALL.

Regarding CPR, I am not in the position to comment as I never sailed with the Company, but did work on their Shore Gang, whilst awaiting the next Cunarder to arrive in Liverpool. What I saw of the Company, was a very professsional and proud Liner Outfit. Their ships were spotless, and their catering was of the highest standard. Being in direct competition to Cunard, they had to operate at the highest level, regarding the Catering and Pursers Departments.

As for the Captain taking over the job of the Purser Chief Steward, and there was a noticeable drop in the price of alcohol and tobacco - the price of these items, in respected companies, was determined by Head Office, not by the Captain, 2ND Cook, Donkeyman, or anybody else on the vessel. Regarding the store rooms being filled with stores that had not passed their sell-by date, back in the 1950's, 60's and 70's, food products were not labelled with a 'Best Before Date'. As a general rule, on long voyages, the Purser Catering Officer would store the ship for 16 weeks, and replenish when required.

Finally, in P & O Passenger Division, there was no Catering Department, it was known as the Pursers Department, all 600 plus Crew Members, the Menus being compiled by the Deputy Purser, Head Chef, Chief Baker and Chief Steward.

Super-Cargoes I know nothing about.

Regards,
John

[j.sabourn]

Hi when I was asking about a Purser on a ship I was on, there was no catering attached to this job. I could not therefore understand the rank of a purser on a cargo ship. This was the position he signed on as, to me he should have signed on as supercargo which would have been the norm. I doubt whether the person in question had ever served in the catering dept. as I said he started off as a Writer, which I assume is an understudy to a purser? and believe this was his total amount of sea experience that I knew about. As he was put onboard by Palm Line I thought anyone on this site would have been able to clarify this rank they had. I had a cousin who for many years was an engineer with Palm Line and never heard him mention anything about Pursers on the ships. As other members on this site have mentioned Palm Line at times, even once years ago to asking about my cousin I thought they may have had an input to the question. Best Regards and thanks for your ongoing replies. John Sabourn

[Neil Morton]

As an ex assistant steward/2nd I take no offence to John Arton's comments. I sailed with all ranks in the Catering Dept who's behaviour was exemplary; however I can think of a few who swayed when they walked even in a calm sea.

[happy daze john in oz]

The fact is I believe that there may have been a different interpretation of the position by different companies. My expereience with liners within UCL was as i first mentioned, it may well have been different with the cargo ships. As to pursers taking control of stores etc, with some second stewards i knew of it would not be abda thing. How some where never charged with theft is beyond me. But as to the attempted character asssination thta appears to have taken place in som parts fo this thread let me say this. all that we speak of happened many moons ago, some of us may only have partial recolaections of what aoccured. That however does not give any one the right to castigate another member just because they have a different recolection. we were all in it together.