WW2 Records

[ajwelland]

Hi everyone, I'm new to researching Merchant Navy records so excuse my lack of knowledge or if the answer to my question is really obvious to you! My Grandfather was a Merchant Navy Commander, working his way up to Chief Engineer in the mid 1960's before retiring in 1971. I've accessed a (very) few records from Ancestry and also written records of the ships he was on post-WW2 from the National Archives, but I'd like to know more about his war service from 1939 to 1945. Do records exist and are they accessible? Any pointers gratefully received.

[Captain Kong]

Keep looking in, some of our experts will help.
BUT I have never heard of a Merchant Navy Commander. Maybe an Engineer
Cheers
Brian

[Ivan Cloherty]

Hi everyone, I'm new to researching Merchant Navy records . Do records exist and are they accessible? Any pointers gratefully received.

In the eras you are referring to 1930's to 1970's, in which most of us on this site served, when at sea in an officer class you were either an engineer or a deck officer, if an engineer your career took you to the highest rank of chief engineer, if you were a deck officer then your career took you to highest rank of Master (Captain), In a lot of companies they sometimes referred to a particular Master as Commodore, this was purely an internal recognition of that person being the longest serving Master in that particular company, but had no official recognition in the British Merchant Service. There would be no chance that a Captain would work is way 'up' to Chief Engineer as being captain on any vessel was the ultimate position on any ship regardless of what other qualifications he may have held, no matter what subject they were in

[Doc Vernon]

Could you please post his full name and DOB so as we can try and assist more on this !
Thanks
Do you have his CRS10 Records? There are also possibly his WW2 Merchant seamen’s campaign medal records 1939-1945 which can be accessed if he had any recorded
If not those will hold a lot of info as well/
Cheers

[ajwelland]

Hi again, thanks for your responses all.

I’ve looked at what records I have and it appears now that he may have spent the majority of his career in the RNR after joining at the beginning of the war. My Grandmother (his wife) used to speak about connections with P&O shipping company in his later service and a lot about his trips to New Zealand. Here’s some details:

Full Name: Harold Dowle
Born: 7th June 1911

I have a card with a discharge A number in the name of H Dowle of 714335 for 12/7/1938 on a ship called Lornaston (148881) from Liverpool.

I have a record of him being on HMS Leonian in 1941/2 from a list of people he wanted to write telegrams to from the ship. I have his actual campaign medals but no documented records of these.

I have a bunch of CRS10 records from the National Archives dated from 1955 until his retirement in 1971. He was a Chief Engineer and a discharge A number of R107996 is recorded on all these post-1955 records. There are also multiple references to the New Zealand Shipping Company and names of ships like Haparangi (181680), Hinakura (183041), Ruahine (184417) which sound Maori. He also was on Sussex (183003), Essex (186048), Cornwall (184554), Hertford (182914) and Suffolk (167330).

So basically the war years and after up until 1955 are the missing parts I would like to fill in.

Many thanks, Alec

[Doc Vernon]

Not sure if any of this will help but I know that High will soon get back to you with more!
Cheers

148880; 148881; 148885; 148887; 148888 | The National Archives

[Des Taff Jenkins]

Hi Alec.
If you say he was in the R.N.R and served on Royal navy ships that is where you got your commander from, I was on a Royal Fleet Auxiliary tanker the Wave Baron in 52 and there were all kinds of commanders on her we even had a surgeon commander.
Cheers Des

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[j.sabourn]

#7 My 4 years working with Navy specialists, was that was your real first step to stardom on reaching the rank of Commander and a brass hat. A lieutenant Commander if got stuck in that rank for any length of time was a sign you were not being groomed for going any where in a hurry. This info. courtesy of my fellow RN shipmates. JS

[ajwelland]

Wow, thanks for the pointers, fascinating stuff. I must admit the more I research the more I admire those who chose a Merchant Navy career. I'm envious of your sense of adventure, but I'm sure it was hard work and tough sometimes being away from family and home. I came across a number of things yesterday, including a site dedicated to the ships of the New Zealand Shipping Company who seem to have similar ships bearing most of the names on my Grandfather's CRS10 records. They were merchant ships and this will explain all the talk of New Zealand. I also found a (very hard to read) caption on his CRS10 records which stated "Seaman retired from RNR 9.4.63", some nine years before his actual retirement. Any other information gratefully received on this thread and thanks for taking the time to help out, I'll contribute to help make sure the site stays funded. One question lingers - does a Discharge A number stay with you for life or could my Grandfather have had two (trying to find out if the earlier record with a different one is related to him). Have a great weekend all and here's a photo of the man we've been discussing - my hero Grandad.

File0007_LR.jpg

[Hugh]

Hello Alec and welcome,

The photo shows a Commander Royal Naval Reserve.
I presume during WW2 he was serving as an officer RNR and not a rating. I have checked online records and I don't see him listed but that doesn't mean he doesn't have any. So you may have to check out records held at Kew and the Ministry of Defence.

Officers’ service records (1921-present)
Consult the GOV.UK website: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/request-...vice-personnel to establish how to request a summary of an officers service record from the Ministry of Defence.
Personally, as he served into the 1970s, I suspect you will have to go via the MOD route however also look at the Fleet Air Arm Museum just in case.

Records at the Fleet Air Arm Museum: Centre for Naval Aviation Records and Research
Contact the Fleet Air Arm Museum about access to original Royal Naval Reserve ratings service records from 1909 to 1955, and officer record cards including: Executive (X), Engineers (E), Cadets and Warrant Officer Telegraphic.

Other sources to check out as follows:

Consult the published Navy Lists to follow a Royal Naval Reserve officer’s career. RNR officers have been included since 1862. Confidential Navy Lists (ADM 177) contain information omitted during the world wars.
For RNR officers the Navy List gives name, rank, date of commission and seniority. It should also indicate names of ships served on.

As regards the discharge numbers you have, normally a seaman would have only one Dis.A number throughout his service in the MN. However, I have seen in instances of more than one held in the records. Usually one would be cancelled but sometimes mistakes and omissions were made. If a seamen left the service and rejoined at some later date then if there was no record of a previous Dis.A record then a new number would be issued.
So is that Dis.A number 714335 for H Dowle your relation? The answer is I don't know as the CR2 card does not give me enough to go on. The seaman on this card was a F & T (Fireman and Trimmer) which is an engine-room rating so that is closely related to engineering. You could of course get hold of the Crew Agreement for the ship LORNASTON and see if his next of kin details tally with what you know.

Hope that gives you something to go on.

Regards
Hugh